Old classic with No Main Beam tell Tale lights fitted

[oojimmyflip]

Hi,

I'm New here so please forgive me if I have managed to post in the wrong section.
I am an unfortunate owner of a 1987 registered 2cv which has no tell tale high beam lights fitted to the dashboard. it failed the MOT for tell tale main beam lamps not working.
how could they work if they are not fitted?
The manual and haynes wiring diagrams also do not include this lamp.
Can somebody please explain to me why it has to meet Modern vechicle standards by fitting these Tell Tale lamp/s when it has never been required before?

Many Thanks in advance

Nigel.

[Deleted]

Hi Nigel

Welcome to the forum.

All vehicles first used on or after April 01st 1986 are subject to the inspection for a main beam warning lamp illumination, which is why the NT failed your 2CV registered in 1987. Somtimes it is difficult to establish if a main beam warning lamp is not fitted.

Can you post up the wiring diagram for your car please.

[any]

Daveg,
Thanks for your prompt reply I'll get right on it for you. it may take a while.

[oojimmyflip]

Daveg,

Here we go hope this works ok this is the latest available wiring diagram for the 2cv it hasn't changed since.


link

[Deleted]

Sorry link does not work?

[baz657]

Link works now @daveg

[oojimmyflip]

Yep works fine now I had a weird loss of web connection mid post and I think Photo bucket did one as well.

Daigram says up to 1981 but the wiring didnt change again after 1981 so they used the old diagrams.

regards Nigel.

[billyloadsamud]

I test a lot of 2cv's, VSI(vehicle specific information) advises no main beam warning lamp fitted to this vehicle , this was brought to my attention by local specialist& 2cv owners club discussed this with VOSA, go to 2cv owners club site forum and you will see posts re this.
Should not be an RFR.

[oojimmyflip]

Sorry don't understand RFR can you elaborate please?

Thanks again Regards Nigel.

[baz657]

RFR = Reason For Rejection.

In English... Fail

[Deleted]

Thanks Baz.

The wiring diagram has quite a few bulbs on it in various locations, however the diagram cannot be expanded and therefore I cannot zoom in to identify the circuits correctly. I have check AD but is too old for them to list the diagram, but if you can't locate a better quality diagram I can contact AD tomorrow if you provide a few more details about your car, which you can do via PM if you like.

Edited to add, sorry misted last post by billyloadsofmud, but yes reads like the NT did not read the VSI instructions before testing, or registered your vehicle wrong and ended up without VSI?

[baz657]

I recall on very early 2CV's the internal indicator warning was a 'click' - there was no warning tell-tale on the dashboard. This was allowed as it was the original specification as would be the case if it can be proved that there was no main beam warning lamp fitted from new.

Edited to add

If you were to take some form of documentation (copy of a page from the owners forum for example) to the original tester oojimmyflip I'm sure he/she would accept it and issue you with a pass.

[oojimmyflip]

Daveg,

The extra info has been sent Via Pm to you.

many thanks for your offer of help, I am a member of the Citroen Car Club but even they are still in the dark about this, the 2cv GB website locks out non-members completely so they dont share forum information with anyone else.
their front page suggests that No tell tale lights for main beam will flag up on the testers computer and warn that not all citroen 2cv's were fitted with tell tale lamps orriginally but this does not seem to have happened in my case.

thanks for your help Daveg because I am really stuck without good information about this.

what is even sadder is that the car passed the MOT on everything else today except this.

thanks again.
regards Nigel.

[phaetonott]

baz657
The indicator telltale can be visual (lamp or flag) or audible (click or chime), or even if it's possible to see an indicator each side from the normal driving position.

[baz657]

It wasn't originally when the tell-tale was added to the test phaetonott - the audible option was added a bit later because of problems with (mainly) 2CV's.

Edited to add

It once caused a heated "debate" between me, a VE, then a SVE and eventually somebody high up in Bristol - all because of a stupid decision of mine to do an observed test on a 2CV before the audible option came in

[phaetonott]

I agree that original design features should be accepted, so I would pass it.

However I do recall retro fitting screenwashers when they became part of the test, even though many cars only had them as "optional extras", and likewise in the 80s we had to fit hundreds of cars with rear seat belts following a law change.

But let's be honest, are you really going to dazzle anyone with your 45 watt glowworms?

[oojimmyflip]

I have just recieved this (below ) on the Citroen Car Club forum.
I hope it will be enough to convince the tester that he missed something on his computer at the start of the test today.

regards Nigel.

Pasted below.


Re: Has anyone else been caught out by the new MOT rules?

Postby knightley » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:28 pm
This has been discussed at length on the 2cv forums. It was obviously a cock up by Citroen UK.

VOSA have been informed that 2cvs built after that date were not fitted with main beam indicator lamps and they have put a message on the MOT system that should flag up when the registration is put in the test computer.

It should not be a fail. Get the tester to read his screen again.

Here's the relevant info provided by Daras Rich who liased with VOSA on this issue.

Here's what the VOSA mot tester's manual says:

With the headlamps on, switch between dipped and main beams checking that:
a. each headlamp illuminates immediately it is switched to either dipped or main beam
b. either: · all main beams are switched off by one switch (dip switch) leaving a matched pair of dipped-beams switched on, or · the main beam headlamp reflectors are deflected by a driver’s control, to make them dipped beams
c. on vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986, the ‘tell-tale’ illuminates when main beam is selected

And here is the message that comes up on the VT40 (testers checklist), which he/she prints out before starting the test. (This message is generated from a database of "VSI"s / "Vehicle Specific Information"):

Some of these vehicles may not have a main beam warning lamp and should not be failed for that reason. However if one is fitted it should be tested.

[phaetonott]

That'll do it.

Simply ask the garage to show you the VT40 for your test (they have to keep it for three months)and point it out to them.

[oojimmyflip]

Jun 26, 2013 0:12:45 GMT 1 phaetonott said:

I agree that original design features should be accepted, so I would pass it.

However I do recall retro fitting screenwashers when they became part of the test, even though many cars only had them as "optional extras", and likewise in the 80s we had to fit hundreds of cars with rear seat belts following a law change.

But let's be honest, are you really going to dazzle anyone with your 45 watt glowworms?

phaetonott,

you might be forgetting that the 2cv headlamps are mounted about as high as headlamps get on an adjustable bar They are almost 2ft 6ins up from the front bumper, this may be the reason for concern I have since got some info from a Citroen Car Club Member (above) fortunately
regards Nigel.

[oojimmyflip]

Hello again,

well at least I can say I tried I took the info from the Citroen Car club with me and at first the owner of the Garage refused to discuss anything about the test or read any of my printed documents.
He just kept saying they can only go by what it says on the computer from VOSA.

we moved to his office and he appeared quite shaken and angry that someone was challenging an MOT failure, he calmed down a bit when I said I wasn't there for trouble or an argument.

I asked to see a copy of the VT40 but he flashed it across my field of view and put it straight back in his intray I didnt get a chance to hold it and read it. it did seem to be a badly hand written document from what I did see but it was hard to make out any proper wording just having it flashed across the front of my eyes.

In the end he said to go back this afternoon and see what he can find out. he did ask if that was the only failure on the MOT even though he had the failure sheet in front of him.

there certainly seemed to be no flagged up warnnings on his computer which does seem to be very old running a very old version of windows NT. he prionted out the section 1.7 pages one and two about headlamps which confirms the quoted information about the headlamps as pointed out above from the citroen website but there is no flagged up section suggesting that the vechcile may not have the warnning lamp fitted and that this is not a sufficient reason for failure.

apparently there is an exemptuion for category 3 vechicles but not a catgegory 4 citroen 2cv. wether this is corrct or not I do not know as I was not close enough to the computer screen to view the text, I was stood on the other side of the room behind the counter.

could this be because the Garage doesnt have his computer updated?
maybe an update has been missed?
it seems to be a postcode lottery different here but ok up there in another part of the country, strange.

can somebody be more spercific please as to where to find this information?

 The garage owner tried to convince me to fit a warnning lamp and went on to tell me how much easier it would be for me to do this .


regards Nigel.